dsmyth
Jr. Member
Posts: 52
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« on: August 09, 2007, 05:08:33 PM » |
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'cor, I go away for a few/several/multiple of ten months and the site completely changes - glad to be back!  Anyway, I have a bit of an issue... Several months ago a friend (of sorts) asked me to do a web site for him and we agreed, via email, a price based on the amount of pages on the site and the amount of time I thought it would take to complete the site. Price set, agreed, all parties happy, etc. Completing the site a few months ago I've been asking for payment a numerous times to very little, if any, response, until today where I basically told him that if he didn't reply by a set time I would suspend the site. Having completed the design in good faith, I hadn't expected this to be an issue really. Basically, he's now saying that he doesn't want to pay the full price for the site as he doesn't think the design warrants it (despite that not being a consideration when summing up the price) and he then proceeded to initially offer an eighth (and later a "final offer of" quarter) of the agreed price. Now, I haven't set to rip this guy off and I think the price I set for the amount of work was reasonable (and so did he). At all stages of the design process I was asking his opinion to get very little response but now he's saying it's very "simplistic" and not what he wanted.  Without getting into every single detail, he has now been using the site for numerous months and actually said he had the full amount of money ready and available a few weeks ago. Surely if he was unhappy with the image of the site, he wouldn't want to be using it...oui? Anyway, I've now removed all of my content from the site and I'm just wondering where I stand with this - has anyone else has had a similar experience? As a last resort I'm tempted to consider potentially going through the Small Claims Court...any thoughts? Thanks in advance... Dave |
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Jeewhizz
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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2007, 06:07:36 PM » |
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Small Claims will cost £30, which he will have to pay if he loses. I would go down this route if he doesnt' pay up. Email him giving him written notice of intention to file in 14 days time...
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Whatever
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« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2007, 09:31:26 PM » |
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I've had success with the small claims court but not on webdesign issues.
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suedenem
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2007, 07:50:46 AM » |
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Do you have any correspondence which shows his willingness to pay the agreed fee, and perhaps asking for/receiving feedback? Contracts take many forms from a formal written document outlining his and your responsibilities and duties to a verbal agreement, but having something written (or in an email) will make your case much easier to prove.
Likewise, did you formally invoice your acquaintance or simply ask him for the money? If you've not got a paper trail to *prove* you've asked him for the money, send him an invoice, reminder and final reminder, adding interest for non-payment each time.
I've gone down the SCC route a couple of times - in both instances the other party paid up before proceedings went too far. Showing you are willing to take it further is usually enough to force someone's hand in paying (unless they genuinely cannot afford to pay). Formalise proceedings a bit more and remind your friend you are a professional designer, not a car boot stall holder who can be bartered with.
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So this SEO copywriter walks into a bar, grill, pub, public house, Irish bar, bartender, drinks, beer, wine, liquor...
Beware my weird, cross-dressing comment's; they are pretty standard examples of trolling.
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charlie
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2007, 07:51:22 AM » |
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I always charge in 3 parts
30% before I start
30% on agreement of 'template' design
40% on completion or two months if waiting for content from client.
Seems to work well for both parties .. I've had about 3 sites where Ilve received full money and they still (2 years later) haven't given me the content !! Only had one renage on the final payment so the site didn't go up .... swings and roundabouts but at least you get 70% of teh cash minimum.
And I presume he's no longer even a friend 'of sorts' !!
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Jeewhizz
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2007, 09:04:15 AM » |
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I don't have any experience, as people always pay me  Sarah does though, i'm sure she'll be along soon! Jee |
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sarahA
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2007, 10:01:11 AM » |
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Yep, been there done that over an unpaid invoice. I had all the paperwork, diary entries and everything to back it all up, but it's still a stressful nasty process (but worth it for the experience if nothing else, I'm more confident from experiencing it all). First off, send him a formal invoice by recorded delivery. If you can, enclose significant correspondence, where any agreements were made such as work required, prices etc. Give him 30 days to pay the invoice but also point out on it that you have requested this money since whatever date. If he doesn't pay, send a red bill giving him 7-14 days to pay. The more time you give him to pay the more the courts will see that you tried to solve this amicably. It's frustrating and time consuming but the better you come off the better it looks. If he still hasn't paid then you can register and sign up for the small claims online at https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jspThe steps to the claim process 1. I believe it's £50 to start the process however you can add that £50 onto the outstanding money. Complete the details as accurately as possible, and then wait. 2. What will happen is that the claim will be filed at a court and you'll be sent a letter to state this. 3. The defendent will also be sent a letter along with a document asking for their side of the story. They'll fill this out, no doubt lie, and send it back. 4. You'll get a copy of what they've put along with further information documents for you to fill out. You get a notes section (tiny) where you can put down as much detail as you want, personally I typed up a statement of about 2 pages long explaining everything, explaining all of the relevant paperwork that I'd included and pointed out where I could prove the client had lied. For example I had photocopies of my diary showing times and dates of when things had happened, I had letters, the original invoice, emails to prove the defendent was lying etc. You then have to have two copies of these documents, one to send to the court and one to send to the defendent, recorded delivery. Keep the originals for yourself. 5. The defendent is to do the exactly the same. 6. Then the court will decide whether you or the defendent should be awarded the win or whether they want to have you in court (from what I've been told it's an informal meet at a desk with a judge). The court is usually the closest to the defendent so if he lives away from you then be prepared to travel. About a week before I was due in court my non-paying client phoned and offered me half the money and because of other personal problems I accepted as I figured that whilst I was sure I would be awarded the claim I didn't want to risk losing it all after the work and effort had been put in. Plus I'd have to go to London to the court and I lived in Cardiff at the time. Things you need to ask yourself 1. Do you have enough relevant paperwork to prove and make a good enough argument that you both agreed the work and you should be paid in full? 2. Is the amount you're trying to get worth it? Fighting for the principle is nice but if your time is money then you need to make the decision. I got pretty stressed over the whole situation especially when I got the first response back and it was full of lies as it made me sound very unprofessional. I would say that nothing less than £500 is worth it really unless you have the time to spare, the defendent doesn't live far away and you're pretty confident about winning. 3. Have you tried to come to an agreement with him first? It may be more worthwhile to try that. If the invoices don't work, ask him what he's prepared to offer, if he comes back with a ridiculous offer, work out how low you're prepared to go and tell him that he needs to meet that else you'll be going to the small claims court. It may scare him into doing a deal. The sight of court papers may scare him too. I've been told since that when the court papers arrived at my client's office he was actually scared, despite still lying over it all. If this guy is a busy guy then the last thing he wants is the hassle of dealing with court papers, so if nothing else you know you've caused him hassle And of course take the lesson learned from this, always get a deposit first Good Reading: http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm |
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« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 10:03:35 AM by sarahG »
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dsmyth
Jr. Member
Posts: 52
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« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2007, 10:21:18 AM » |
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Cheers for that Sarah - it does sound like a lot of work if he decides to contest it... The claim is for less than £500 but I'm a student just about to go to Uni so I've got time on my hands, he lives 30 minutes away and I've got email upon email of me trying to get feedback and to progress the site - often met with little or no response. All of my points can be backed up with emails sent at the time including the agreement of price, the amount of pages in the site right through to trying to break the issue of payment several times. Originally I'd offered he could pay in two installments, but upon first requesting the money some months ago I was told he had the money waiting - obviously stringing me along. Anyway, thanks for that - given me a bit of an insight as to what I'm letting myself in for, but I think with people like this you just can't let them get away with it or they'll think they can do it in the future to someone else. I'll send him an email today with an invoice attached (which is an online one, so I'll be able to look at site logs to confirm he's viewed it) with a (very reluctant) 30 day limit on it. I think his response to this will be "oh, he won't do it" and knowing this I'm very tempted to make it 14 days which will speed it up somewhat...I've basically got until the beginning of October before I go to uni, but I suppose even if it runs in to October it'll make a nice little uni fund for a week or two!  Cheers Sarah. |
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sarahA
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« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2007, 10:52:38 AM » |
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The 30 days on the invoice is simply because you need to allow them 30 days for payment. Despite requesting money before now, officially you've not invoiced up until now, so as frustrating as it is, you need to give him 30 days, but as I said, mention on the invoice that this is a formal invoice to confirm the amount you have been requesting since whatever date. This way it's on the invoice when you first requested money. Remember, if you do take this to court, if it's proven that you officially gave him less time a court may think you're wasting their time, too impatient and keen to jump into court and may throw it out without you even getting there.
Whilst you're emailing the invoice I would still post it recorded along with printouts of what you discussed and agreed. By all means add in a letter stating that this is proof of what you agreed and that he responded saying the design looked good so far, to change his mind is not fair to you. Also state on the letter that he has 30 days in which to make payment otherwise you will be seeking legal advice. That may give him an initial scare.
Remember that the courts are not 'up' on the ways of the internet and the web. Saying you emailed someone and can see this in a log is not proof enough as you can download and change logs to whatever you wanted. Plus emails don't always get there. By sending it recorded he must sign for it and the post office then has proof. You can track this, print it off and they can confirm it with the post office if there was ever any doubt. Also make sure you give the guy every opportunity to pay ie. give your bank details for a transfer or over the counter payment or offer to accept a cheque (I'd steer clear of paypal as he could dispute it after paying).
Essentially you want to show him your paperwork, invoice him officially and make him realise that you're prepared to take him to court if the situation arises. And if the site is less than £500 then he really is a tight bum!
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Mr Anderson
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2007, 04:11:24 PM » |
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Just another thought on this...in the meantime while this is all going on, I've suspended his web site. Am I ok to do this?
Not at this point. A better plan would be to give him a chance to respond to the invoice. If he doesn't pay within the first couple of weeks send a reminder, attach another copy to that for his benefit. If he hasn't paid by the end of the thirty days send him a red one, state on it that the account is overdue, give him a further 7 days to pay following which you will apply interest to the outstanding amount (backdated to the initial invoice date), which you will notify him of on the overdue invoice notice. At this point you could also give him a further deadline, following which legal proceedings to recover the debt plus costs incurred (including interest) would be taken out. |
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Mr Anderson
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2007, 06:09:14 PM » |
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He's already given me a 'final offer' of a quarter of the total cost of the site
This is the point when you initiate small claims proceedings, or point out your intention and give him a final opportunity to pay the debt in full (assuming that you have anything to support your claims to the full value). If he comes back and says that he isn't paying the full amount then you probably won't have to wait any longer to receive payment as he's making a refusal. |
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« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 06:10:53 PM by Mr Anderson »
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sarahA
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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2007, 06:14:12 PM » |
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Well you've got proof of him saying the site's looking good so far, you've got an agreement of prices so stick to the plan and see what happens. Inform him that you're not prepared to accept a quarter of the final offer. You've got email proof of him saying he liked the design, that when you requested further info you didn't get much info from him and presumed he was happy with what was being done and therefore you believe the total amount, that is worth more than whatever you agreed for anyway, should be paid for.
You mentioned originally the cost was for design, development and hosting? I'd be charging up to around £1k for that, not under £500, so this guy has already got a good deal. Unfortunately it happens, I've been unpaid and had my fingers burnt too many times when I started out, lost around £2k of time in total. Don't let them get away with it. As I said, cause the hassle of small claims if nothing else as he won't appreciate it! He's trying his luck and seeing if he can get away with it. I'm guessing a quarter is what, £100? No more than £150? The hosting and development is worth more than that alone and he can't cut the price of that. Even if he didn't pay for the design (although I wouldn't let him get away with that) then the cost of development and hosting should be worth more than that.
Despite him refusing I'd still invoice him officially. You need to prove you have, you need to show you gave him enough time (and I'm assuming you did this yesterday).
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sarahA
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« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2007, 06:15:10 PM » |
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Should I start proceedings even if the 30 days from the 'official' invoice hasn't cleared?
No. Inform him that he has officially been invoiced, you require full payment otherwise you will seek legal advice. Leave it at that until he responds. You need to allow him that time else I'm not sure how the courts would take it. |
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Mr Anderson
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« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2007, 06:15:27 PM » |
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Should I start proceedings even if the 30 days from the 'official' invoice hasn't cleared?
First off tell him that you will recover any non-payment by small claims; you can resubmit the invoice to him for the full amount and clarify that the full amount is due. If he re-states his refusal then I don't see why you can't initiate proceedings straight away. I'd also recommend going to the CAB and asking for more experienced advice. |
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dsmyth
Jr. Member
Posts: 52
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« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2007, 06:22:22 PM » |
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£50 is the quarter. The work was design and any development really, it was a bit of a mates rate thing and I wish I hadn't started it now... He's a bit of a joker - he's now saying that he sent something (which he did) that he wanted the design to be in the style of (that part he didn't say)...and when was it sent? Get this...5 months after work commenced. ARGH! Plan of action - I'll give him 30 days just to satisfy the courts. I'll call/visit the CAB just to see what they say and I'll take the correspondence so far to see if they reckon I've got a chance. If they reckon I have I'll resend the email invoice (with the same date, I presume?) with the SCC cost added in then send a hard copy recorded delivery on Monday. Cheers for the help/advice guys...I'll buy you a drink if you're ever around these parts.  |
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« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 06:24:27 PM by dsmyth »
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sarahA
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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2007, 06:31:41 PM » |
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Trouble is, email can be forged. People can deny saying or emailing stuff. Everything you need to do from now on needs to be sent on official headed paper via the Royal Mail as recorded delivery. Despite this guy saying he refuses to pay the full amount you don't have true, true proof to this (unless he sent it recorded/special delivery/couriered). You need an independent source to certify everything you do at this point. Sure your emails are there to back it all up but for example you've sent an invoice and given 30 days, this guy has told you, presumably via email or telephone that he refuses to pay it, however if you started proceedings right now and it got to court, the guy could say to the judge that you filed the claim before the 30 days were up. If I were the judge in that I'd throw it out.
In my own opinion (and I'm not a legal expert!!) you need to
1. Give it 30 days, I presume and hope you sent the invoice by recorded delivery
2. Stop corresponding via email. If he refuses to pay then print the email off and reply via a letter (recorded) stating that you require the payment in full by the end of the 30 days. Continue to do this, make a note of all extra charges as you can recoup these on the claim I believe.
3. At the end of the 30 days send a 7 day final reminder. Write a letter with it stating when you first requested payment and when you first send an official invoice. Attach the relevant emails showing how much you agreed, that despite him saying he doesn't like the design at all your email saying it looked good so far. Inform him if he doesn't make payment within 7 days you will start legal proceedings to recover the money.
4. 7 days later go to the small claims online (link I posted above). File it and wait, then follow the instructions as and when it comes.
Also work out a figure in your head that you're prepared to accept and if he starts to seem negotiable aim to get to that, afterall despite having the time you don't want to risk a Judge awarding in his favour.
Keep it official and forget any friendliness now, he's clearly not a friend and is also pretty lame to be doing this.
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sarahA
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« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2007, 07:41:02 PM » |
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No. The court is simply to establish whether he should pay you. If he doesn't that doesn't mean he gets the right to keep the site, and if the court awards that he doesn't have to pay a penny (highly unlikely but I guess it could happen) you won't be able to get a penny from him for this work.
Also, don't forget, even if a court awards in your favour it doesn't mean he has to pay you there and then, but if does give you the power to get the baliffs on him.
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