As predictable as Christmas

[familychoice]

Don't you just love it when you do an itemised website quote for a client, and when it's all agreed they send their content over and it includes a whole load of pages and features they never mentioned before?

It's teeth-grindingly predictable: "I just want a basic site, home page, services, links and contact page. No blog or anyfin fancy." seems to morph into a multi level user system with built in Facebook style functionality, new logo/branding, shopping cart facilities, fully integrated booking system, ongoing SEO support and Flash movies featuring Bruce Forsyth in a gorilla costume ice skating across the moon.

All for six hundred quid, bargain.

[suedenem]

Just say no

£600?  They should be grateful to get a one-page holding site.

That's the problem with doing 'cheap' sites.  The clients don't understand the value of what you do.

[Steve Lampkins]

£600? I'd scratch my bum for a bit in front of them for that.

[familychoice]

£600?  They should be grateful to get a one-page holding site.

That's the problem with doing 'cheap' sites.  The clients don't understand the value of what you do.

I know, and I've been burnt like this before so I'd usually say no. In this instance it's a job for an offshoot of an organisation I've already built a site for, and who are also looking for a redesign of their main site soon (at a 'proper' rate). The offshoot branch have little money, but only wanted 'something simple' so I quoted for a very basic WP site with a few pages of content so they at least had something online which they could build on at a later date when they had a more realistic budget.

The quote was very specific as to what they get - the chap I'm dealing with will need a lot of hand holding after the site goes live, so I made it very clear that ongoing support and advice wasn't included and detailed exactly what they'd be getting for their money.

Of course after everything's been agreed the first email with their content contains requirements for features that were never mentioned, and full training and support that was never included.

I've responded with a polite email stating we can quote to provide any additional features or services they require, or to refund their deposit if they've changed their mind but in these situations they usually try and make me feel like Dick Dastardly from Castle Greyskull Design Ltd. stealing sweets from little kiddies.

[familychoice]

£600? I'd scratch my bum for a bit in front of them for that.

We provide a full bum scratching service for £250. I need to check my rates...

[Matt]

Weirdly just got a client asking me to redesign prt of his site for free on the promise of a redesign in jan. just after reading this.

[familychoice]

Weirdly just got a client asking me to redesign prt of his site for free on the promise of a redesign in jan. just after reading this.

I'd tell them to wait until Jan, and they can do the whole lot in one go then.

Unfortunately at the cheaper end of web work clients tend not to put much value on your time and I think a lot of them think it's such a desirable profession that most designers should be happy to do it for free.

I had an enquiry yesterday from a company wanting to advertise on one of my web directories. The site gets masses of traffic due to the promotional work I do for it and likewise listed companies get a lot of hits. Despite clicking a big banner with the cost of the listing in 72pt Arial Black, filling an enquiry form in that once again had the cost of advertising all over it, the bloke seemed genuinely shocked when I provided payment details for his listing. He responded saying it "should be free", and that he "didn't have that sort of budget" (£50 per year) for online advertising.

I'm very tempted to go along to his high-end farm shop/centre and have a meal in his expensive restaurant, and instead of paying the bill tell them "it should be free" and that I "don't have that sort of budget" for eating out.

[Matt]

Weirdly just got a client asking me to redesign prt of his site for free on the promise of a redesign in jan. just after reading this.

I'd tell them to wait until Jan, and they can do the whole lot in one go then.

Unfortunately at the cheaper end of web work clients tend not to put much value on your time and I think a lot of them think it's such a desirable profession that most designers should be happy to do it for free.

I had an enquiry yesterday from a company wanting to advertise on one of my web directories. The site gets masses of traffic due to the promotional work I do for it and likewise listed companies get a lot of hits. Despite clicking a big banner with the cost of the listing in 72pt Arial Black, filling an enquiry form in that once again had the cost of advertising all over it, the bloke seemed genuinely shocked when I provided payment details for his listing. He responded saying it "should be free", and that he "didn't have that sort of budget" (£50 per year) for online advertising.

I'm very tempted to go along to his high-end farm shop/centre and have a meal in his expensive restaurant, and instead of paying the bill tell them "it should be free" and that I "don't have that sort of budget" for eating out.

Told them its an hours work and the cost, if he goes elsewhere all I've lost is an hour doing work for free.

[familychoice]

Told them its an hours work and the cost, if he goes elsewhere all I've lost is an hour doing work for free.

That's what I'd do. I'm sure they wouldn't ask their local plumber to do an hours work for nothing so I don't see why they should expect you to, and I've noticed after doing freebies that the client then expects subsequent work to be priced at similarly free/cheap rates. I've lost quite a few clients that I'd done free/cheap jobs for when quoting the normal rate for their next job.

They won't thank you for it either. Probably 80% of the free bits and pieces I've done for clients has gone unacknowledged. I remember one in particular that I built a small, simple site for, all free of charge, who then complained that it didn't have CMS functionality. I said I could set it up as a Wordpress site for them for £100 and they went postal, calling me a 'money head'. That was about 4 years ago and they haven't spoken to me since.

Lovely people.

[vee]

We have a client who owes us £950 from 2 months ago - this is the longest we've had to hold out for cash and its getting to the point where we will need to do something formal. The cash is for an additional 12 pages we added to his site based on a navigation structure and page topics that he supplied. We even did the copy for it.

He then went quiet for a few weeks and ultimately came back to us saying that he'd changed his mind about structure and content and needed it all reconfiguring. We advised that we would be pleased to quote for that after he pays up at which point he advised that he wanted it doing free and that "we needed to consider him as a long term customer". The alternative configuration he's requested is vast and involves lots of copy writing and image work. Errrm nutter!

On Monday we will provide the new quotation and a final (polite) request for payment before any new work commences. In addition, new work will only be done if he pays a rather large deposit. Or we might just tell him to f&ck off on the basis that a) we don't want or need him and b) he's a complete tw@t! We get the odd tardy payer but this guy is the first who's just refused. Hence my annoyance! Grrrrr........

[familychoice]

On Monday we will provide the new quotation and a final (polite) request for payment before any new work commences. In addition, new work will only be done if he pays a rather large deposit. Or we might just tell him to f&ck off on the basis that a) we don't want or need him and b) he's a complete tw@t! We get the odd tardy payer but this guy is the first who's just refused. Hence my annoyance! Grrrrr........

I've had a few like that, previously ok clients that suddenly go a bit feral at the end before trying to disappear without paying their bill. It's almost like they're trying to fall out with you to justify going off to another company.

The last one that did that asked for a separate blog to complement his shopping cart site, which we did for a cheap as chips £300. I kept nudging him for content so we could put it live but it wasn't forthcoming. Then his hosting became overdue. After 2 months non-payment I chased him up about the hosting, and invoiced him for the blog. He ignored all my emails until I eventually switched off his site and then called me threatening to come and 'sort me out'. When I mentioned the blog he denied all memory of asking for it.

In this instance I just let it go, I really didn't fancy the hassle of chasing him up but I think if it was £950's worth I'd go after every penny.

[Matt]

I chase every amount, big or small, I've earnt it, they need to pay for it. I make it clear to people by asking for a 50% deposit for any job £100 or over.

[familychoice]

I chase every amount, big or small, I've earnt it, they need to pay for it. I make it clear to people by asking for a 50% deposit for any job £100 or over.

I ask for deposits for new clients but usually not for established customers. And obviously that's when they get me.

[Dom]

Ah, just when my faith in people was almost restored, I read this thread. Woop!

It's clients like this that put me off working for myself full time. But, going back to a thread I started a while back about my role in my current company, it sounds like some of the people that work here take the same attitude towards the work that I do as your clients do with your work. "Under-appreciated" is a bit of an understatement.

[Matt]

Ah, just when my faith in people was almost restored, I read this thread. Woop!

It's clients like this that put me off working for myself full time. But, going back to a thread I started a while back about my role in my current company, it sounds like some of the people that work here take the same attitude towards the work that I do as your clients do with your work. "Under-appreciated" is a bit of an understatement.

I work for myself in the evening, so get the clients then, and work full time 9-5 in the day so I understand it on both accounts.

 

[familychoice]

Ah, just when my faith in people was almost restored, I read this thread. Woop!

It's clients like this that put me off working for myself full time. But, going back to a thread I started a while back about my role in my current company, it sounds like some of the people that work here take the same attitude towards the work that I do as your clients do with your work. "Under-appreciated" is a bit of an understatement.

Oh definitely, web design is easy, apparently.

One of the last companies I worked for had an appalling company site, which had been build by one of the directors. He was also responsible for all their product and company branding. They took me on and as well as redesigning their site I changed all their branding and product bits and bobs - including a bit of interface design. I was given pretty much free rein over all design decisions.

After a few months they were approached by *a very large software and OS company* who asked them to quote on building some online apps and a bit of redesign for some of their own sites. I heard from the horses mouth that this was in a very large part due to the big company being impressed with the new work I'd done. They'd been going ten years and never been asked to quote before.

I helped with the quotes, did a few samples and they were awarded a massive contract for all sorts of work, all of which I was lead design on.

Fantastic. All dandy, but as the months went on the director started 'fiddling', and making suggestions on how I could 'improve' the design work I was producing. Eventually He just took over and basically told me what to do. As well as being professionally unsatisfying I had to put up with other staff in the company commenting on how my designs weren't "as good as they used to be". Quite, they'd had the life sucked out of them by the designerwannabee.

The final cracks came after his mate, an overpaid 'marketing expert' from London came over and between them they created a series of ideas for a big magazine marketing campaign. One of them featured a mocked up 'software' graveyard (yawn) which as well as being cliched to death was exceptionally grim. I pointed this out at the meeting but my comments were brushed aside. After the meeting I even sent a few alternative suggestions to the director. I still have a copy of his email here (I'm not bitter) which read "you do the drawing, I'll do the thinking".

So I produced the ads which were published (actually they looked pretty good, but the gothic style wasn't very popular back then), and a different director was furious. He summoned me to his office and spent about ten minutes shouting about how disappointed he was with my recent work and why the hell did I think such a macabre theme would be a good concept for an ad campaign? I tried to explain they weren't my idea I simply produced the artwork but that made things worse as I was then accused of trying to blame someone else for my shortcomings. The other director was in the office, but avoided eye contact, and never came clean.

There was a bit more of this sort of thing, and after a few more months I marched into their office, slammed a resignation note on their desk and told them to 'shove it up yer bum'.

Resdesign that, director boy.

[Dom]

** takes notes..... FURIOUSLY takes notes **

[sarahA]

We've had our fingers burnt, never again. Client, long term, suddenly stopped paying for his monthly support and couldn't understand why I billed him about £500 for all the time I'd spent (it was a monthly fee that we agreed, well I suggested more, he drove it down) and then his staff just took the mick and constantly called me for help, going over and above how much he was paying really. I took him to small claims and his arguments were, he didn't know I lived in Wales (at the time), utter rubbish, stretched the truth. I could prove everything he said was a lie. Never got to court as he phoned a week earlier and offered half the money. As London was being blown up at the time (July 2005) I took the money. He had the cheek a month or two later to come back asking for an online ecommerce system. I took a large deposit, and when he cancelled I took a fair wad out of that, to cover time already spent (ie. none).

Since then, regardless of long term or new, we almost always ask for a deposit, usually 50% but on large projects over £1k we tend to ask for 3 payments, 40% to begin with, then 30% once the design is completed or a major milestone reached, and then 30% once the site is live. This way we ensure we only get paid for the work we do besides the last 30% potentially. However, not had a problem since. Although I do find it very frustrating that people hold out until the reminders to pay invoices (and sometimes more). It's hardly like you're making millions of interest on £50 in the bank so why wait. I always ensure we pay our bills off within days of getting the invoice. I want to keep the people who do work for us, working for us!

[familychoice]

we almost always ask for a deposit, usually 50% but on large projects over £1k we tend to ask for 3 payments, 40% to begin with, then 30% once the design is completed or a major milestone reached, and then 30% once the site is live. This way we ensure we only get paid for the work we do besides the last 30% potentially.

That's a good idea, I'll have to start doing that. I get a lot of clients that 'wander off' for a few months (or years) halfway through projects so that'd keep the cash flow going.

[Matt]

Been on both sides, Through the school I use DSA Media (Sarah and Daves) and we have no issue with paying 50% - I have never had a customer be arsey about a 50% deposit to me either, old or new!

[sarahA]

we almost always ask for a deposit, usually 50% but on large projects over £1k we tend to ask for 3 payments, 40% to begin with, then 30% once the design is completed or a major milestone reached, and then 30% once the site is live. This way we ensure we only get paid for the work we do besides the last 30% potentially.

That's a good idea, I'll have to start doing that. I get a lot of clients that 'wander off' for a few months (or years) halfway through projects so that'd keep the cash flow going.

That's what I've found in the past, or the client started faffing and changing their mind half way through. In fact I've still got a site that I'm owed a final amount on (trouble is client's now in Australia), that's basically ready to go live once he adds his products and gives me his final tweaks. I've been waiting 2 years... Site still isn't live yet he renews his hosting without fail. I really should bill him...

[familychoice]

I really should kill him...

*fixed*

I've just had a complaint from a client (whinging bloody farmers). I added a slider to their site and created a couple of banners for it (£25 each). Despite being multi millionaires they decided to create the remainder themselves to save money and so as requested I gave them the image dimensions and fonts used. Their 'complaint' is that the images they've made themselves are 'blurry', despite saving them as '.png's' and producing the artwork in 'Powerpoint'.

Well I'm very sorry that my charges for adding a slideshow and 2 banners to your site didn't include full graphic creation training and a copy of Photoshop but I'll be sure to give myself a good thrashing for my appalling service later this evening.

They took them down before I had a chance to look but I'm guessing that as well as using the wrong format and software they ignored the dimensions I gave them and created a massive image that was blurred when it was resized by the html.

[sarahA]

Google cache? Clearly you're in the wrong...

[Dom]

There are farmers on the internet? #Zing