Camera buying advice - please!

[samhs]

I've sold my Canon 30D and the two remaining EF-S lenses I had, and I'm now looking to buy a replacement. I was initially plumping for a Canon 5dmkII, but on looking a little further I'm now in a quandary - the 7D and 60D both look like worthy alternative options, and given the saving on the price of a 5DmkII I could get some very nice glass on top. I want to continue shooting the occasional commercial product or two (I do shoes and food from time to time), but I also want to do video - my clients are increasingly interested in this, and it would be nice to have the option. I'm fully bought into the EOS system, so no Nikon for me.

My deliberation:

5DmkII is full frame, the other two are APS-C (so the same 1.6x magnification as I had on the 30D) - but we're talking 20MP vs 18MP - not a huge difference in theoretical quality (although I get that with the pixels less densely packed on the 5D I'll get better low light performance)
60D has a flip out screen - good for video
5D and 7D have manual fine focus adjustment the 60D doesn't have
5D and 60D have manual audio levels control (for video) the 7D doesn't have
7D has 19 metering points, 60D has only 9
7D has dual digic processors for faster save and cycle, better than the 5D and the 60D

Any opinions or thoughts that can help me reach a decision?

TIA!

[Tony]

Bit of a quandary there squire!

I have the 5D2 and at work I have a 7D, the 7D is primarily for video work however I do use it to shoot stills as well.

They are all good cameras - but then you know that so that don't help you, so let me see if I can address your points.

FF vs APS-C  - the viewfinder is way better in the 5D, however the 7D seems to have a larger viewfinder than my experience of the xxD viewfinder - not sure what it's like on the 60D, the other thing is that with the crop factor you don't get as shallow a depth of field as you do on FF, so bear that in mind if moody focus is your bag, that said with a fast lens you can still drop lots out of focus on the 7D, %D is a bit better in low light, but the other two are pretty good as well.

Flip out screen - fantastic feature and if you're doing a lot of video it will be invaluable, although you can get external monitors for them which gets around that. Bear in mind though if you are using an external monitor then on the 5D & 60D as soon as you hit record it drops the output to 480 - 7D maintains full HD output which makes focus pulling easier.

Manual fine focus adjustment - never used it

Manual audio levels - invaluable if you're recording sound onto the camera, but you will also need an external mic as the inbuilt ones are only any good if people are close to the camera - best bet is an external sound recorder - something like the Zoom H2 or H4 is good, then sync them in post either manually or with pluraleyes. The AGC on the 7D is only any good for getting a reference audio to sync the proper stuff up to.

Metering points - you mean AF points? I use only 1, the centre one and manual focus for filming

dual digic - if you're shooting a lot of sports with a machine gun approach then this is a plus, otherwise the really slow 5D is fast enough for anything really, make sure you get cards with a decent speed - you don't have to go top level - and you should be ok.

When I got the 7D for work, the 60D wasn't announced so it was a toss up between the 7D and the 550D, 550D will do the job I want it to however the 7D uses the same batteries etc as my 5D so that gave me a bit of safety in case I need more batteries or CF cards than I had at work - the 60D and 550D take SD cards.

Have a look at Philip Blooms website, he runs through his pro's and cons for all of them, and you can see some footage from them as well http://philipbloom.net/2010/12/07/whichdslr/

Good Luck

[samhs]

Thanks Tony - that does help a bit. The 7D has 100% coverage, 60D 96% and (I think) the 5D 97% - so that accounts for the difference you see. I'm starting to lean towards the 7D I think, but then I've been switching allegiance between the three for the past week on an almost hourly basis! I had kind of set my heart on going full frame, and I think it's that that is stopping me placing an order right now - any thoughts?

[samhs]

Oh - and Tony - when you're doing video, how are you doing focus pulls? Do you use the lens focus ring, or have you got some kind of contraption strapped onto it for better fine control?

[Tony]

Mk3 shouldn't be too far away as the mk2 is getting a bit old now - but that could be the summer or September, might be worth seeing if they announce anything for Focus which is in March.

I really like the 5D over the 7D, and in terms of getting more out of the camera, magiclantern firmware is available which can give you live audio meters (they are in a menu to set your levels and you can't see them when recording on the normal firmware) and zebra stripes (for exposure) among other things - it is a beta but it's available, but this is only on the 5,60 and 550 - the 7D is too secure for them to hack apparently, but you do risk bricking your camera if you use it.

For me personally, I love the stills you get from the 5D and the effect of the full frame sensor - I have an original 5D and a mk2 - so I was concerned about the 7D, especially the viewfinder brightness as my eyes aren't what they once were, but that concern is pretty much allayed after using it, but the shallowness of the DOF you can achive on the 5D makes it a bit special - and that's both film and still.

From where you are, I would reckon that you wouldn't be disappointed with any of them, but if you went for a crop sensor, you'll always be thinking "what if..."

Is that enough for you to get the purchase past Lorna?

[Tony]

At the moment I'm just using good old fashioned eyesight which is a bit hit and miss due to the resolution of the screen, follow focus rigs etc. are a bit out of my current budget justification. The added complication is if you are trying to zoom and maintain focus at the same time - you need a camera crew for that, at work I just plumped for primes - 28, 50 & 85mm which means I can't zoom if I wanted to, and most of my subjects are pretty stationery anyways, for other shots, there's always the camcorder!

[samhs]

Is that enough for you to get the purchase past Lorna?

Already signed off! Although it's my company buying it rather than me personally, so that does make some difference

Is the video component of the 5D inferior to the 7D? Can you record in 24fps - or is that 7D only? Decisions decisions!

[Tony]

24,25 & 30 on both at 1080p, 50 & 60 at 720p on the 7d - good for slo-mo (the 30 & 60 are NTSC so 29.997 etc.)

[samhs]

hmm. And the hack firmware doesn't open up 60fps on the 5D?

[slaughteredlamb]

If it were me it would be the 7D but that's because that is the camera I want. I would discount the 60D entirely, yes it's a good camera BUT it's not as good in any respect as the 7D or 5D and Canon seem to have mainly released it more to fill a gap between the xxD range and the 7D i.e. it doesnt really add any new features and just brings existing ones a bit more up to date.

This really boils down to if want full frame or APS-C. Full frame is very useful if not essential for Landscape photography, it's very useful for low light photography thanks to the lower pixel density and it's a bit better for video too. APS-C is more of an advantage for telephoto photography and the low light capabilities of the 7D are incredibly good anyway as are it's video capabilities. Seeing as both the 5D and 7D allow you to connect an external mic (a vital accessory for video), then you really need to look at the overall picture (no pun intended) and decide what features are the most important.

Seeing as the kind of product photography you do both cameras would easily cope with you then have to ask yourself "after product photography the main focal lengths I use are..." If they are above 200mm then the 7D is more beneficial, if they are below 24mm than the 5D is of more benefit to you. After that you then have to look at the video side of things and ask yourself, how important is it and is it more important than telephoto performance. If it is, then it looks more like the 5D is the camera for you. From the sounds of things you are interested in slow motion video and technically the 7D is a bit better BUT there is some software (sorry it's name escapes me but it blew me away when I saw what it could do) that can create incredible slow motion video results from 25fps video that was so smooth and realistic that you would swear it was shot at 150fps.

Personally speaking I'd buy the 7D as it's £500 cheaper which would go towards some nice glass or buy that fancy software but that's because I'm not interested in video but it seems for you that the 5D might possibly be the better choice but there's not much in it really. If I had the money I'd buy both though!

[samhs]

Excellent analysis - thanks SL! Needs a little more pondering. The video aspect is important to me - I like the idea of 60fps, and it seems on the web that the 7DS is considered slightly better for video, and yet a lot of people seem to prefer the "look" of the 5D produced video. In terms of usage - I think I'd prefer wide than long, but I've been used to 1.6x so I probably could survive. The price difference does make a difference, as does the fps, but full frame....

I'm thinking the 24-105 f4 L Series IS lens looks good, although there's a 2.8 24-70 without IS that is also tempting. Not sure on that.

[Tony]

Seeing as both the 5D and 7D allow you to connect an external mic (a vital accessory for video), then you really need to look at the overall picture (no pun intended) and decide what features are the most important.

Problem with the 7D is you can't set the audio levels manually, so when you have a quiet moment in the audio, the camera turns the gain up and the audio is pretty bad - you can get around it by frigging about with an ipod and using one channel of noise to suppress the AGC and feeding your real audio in on the other channel but it's not ideal.

For both of them, external audio is really the best solution and just use the internal audio as reference for post sync, so either way it's not a dealbreaker, but it is something to be aware of - if you are using onboard audio then the 5D is better of the two - until/unless Canon bring out firmware to disable the AGC for the 7D.

With the glass, the wider aperture the better if you want shallow DOF, the 24-105 is a nice lens but you are limited to f4 and the IS will be picked up by the internal mic unless you have an external mic attached - plus these cameras are not really that good for handheld unless you get a viewfinder like the Letus Hawk or the Zacuto Z-Finder which help to stabilise the camera even with the IS you can get a fair old wobble on just holding it, so a a good video tripod or a shoulder rig are fairly essential items to get useable footage.

The other thing to consider - outside of the camera choice - is what software will you be using to edit the footage? At the moment, Premiere Pro CS5 is the dogs doodahs if you are using FCP or some other editing software, you will probably find youself with long conversions to do before you edit, then lots of renders during edit. And the slo-mo software I think SL is talking about is twixtor which works with PP and FCP.

[Tony]

hmm. And the hack firmware doesn't open up 60fps on the 5D?

No it doesn't

[samhs]

Thanks Tony. I've got CS5 Master including Premiere Pro CS5 so that's the trick for editing. I'm aware of the need for a shoulder rig, and I've already got a nice tripod that may benefit from a new head unit. Have to take into account the cost of the external mic (min £130 by the looks for something reasonable) and a zoom (£150?) on top. I've already got a nice Sigma EX 30mm 1.4 for wide shots, and it gives very sharp results, so as far as the lens is concerned, I'd like to get an all-purpose - in so far as that's possible.

[Tony]

is the sigma DC or DG? The DC is made for the crop sensor so you may have problems with a full frame. With the zoom lenses, it's difficult to zoom and keep steady and the focus will likely need adjusting as you zoom as well - autofocus isn't really an option, you can sort of use it, but it's hit and miss, that said, as long as you don't zoom or you have a small enough aperture to keep it all in focus anyways, you can use them quite successfully - if plumping for the 7D, I'd look at a 16-18mm lens as 24mm isn't that wide - around 38mm, so maybe the 17-40L or the 17-85 EF-S IS f2.8

Also be aware that the zoom H2 can give some hiss on the audio when you have an external mic plugged in - I'm using mine more and more on a stand in front of the subject for cleaner audio, but that all depends on background noise as well as it can pick up quite a lot, I believe the H4N is cleaner with external mics, but that's twice the price. you can clean it up in soundbooth, but thats another step in post and it's not always perfect.

So the internal mics on the zoom are great, but you need to get it close to the subject and out of shot - I've used it simply hidden behind a telephone and other things and it works well like that unless someone bangs the table, you can boom it and put it in a cradle or for statics as I said on a stand just out of shot

[samhs]

yeah - it is a DC - I can't remember what investigation I did when buying it, but I will have looked into it quite closely (within the context of owning a crop-sensor at the time). Would be a PITA to have to also replace that though....

[Mr Anderson]

That lens is designed for crop sensors and will vignette quite a bit with 35mm bodies

[samhs]

well I guess that adds a further tick to the 7d box then, unless eBay offers a good return.

[samhs]

Okay - I think the 7D is going to be the one on the basis of all the above. I'd really love to get the 5D, but it seems to be outweighed by the (minor) downsides with my current setup versus the 7D. If I sell some more photos, maybe I'll get a 5D to supplement. In the meantime, I'm thinking:

- 7D
- Zoom H2
- possible a Rode stereo mic
- quite like the look of this: http://store.zacuto.com/Z-Finder.html and they also do a good mount to stabilise

So given I've got the Sigma 30mm 1.4 lens already, and I reckon I'll want one general purpose, but good, lens to start with, can I have some recommendations? As mentioned earlier I quite liked the look of the 24-105 L series. It's F4 and has IS, but there is a 24-70 2.8 without IS.

I'm also contemplating buying from bestbuy as they're offering 20% cashback via quidco just now - anyone bought from them yet? TIA

[Tony]

Might be worth giving it a couple of weeks till the Rode Videomic Pro comes out - much more directional than the stereo mic, and more use outside for cutting out extraneous noise.

Also have a look at the Letus Hawk viewfinder, it's getting good reviews although the Z-Finder is good as well, might be worth checking out the difference between the 2.5x and the 3x magnification, some say that the 2.5 is easier to use and more natural.

For the lens, I have the 24-70 and I wish it had IS on it, however I'll trade the IS for the extra stop of light, but they are both cracking lenses just not that wide on the 7D which is why I got the 17-40 when I had a crop sensor, and I think if it was now and I had a crop sensor I'd go for the 17-85 IS

Can't comment on bestbuy, never used them.

[rutty]

I would love a 7D

Chances this year: slim

[slaughteredlamb]

Re the Zoom H2. Personally I wouldn't touch it, what it does it does well.....for the price. It's not as bad as a glorified dictaphone but don't expect great results from it, it's essentially aimed at people who just want to record a meeting/conference not for 'proper' sound recording. We use the Zoom H4 when doing interviews away from our recording studios and actually found the built in mic to be very good. We do still take a 'proper' external mic with us but quite often just use the built in one. Admittedly it is double the price of the H2 but it's money well spent. The main problem you will come across when using any external recorder is sync.

Sync is something I have to deal with on a daily basis and it is prone to errors. Essentially if you are recording video on one device and audio on another just shooting at the same frame rate isn't enough. In the professional world both devices would be using timecode which is a code made up of hours:minutes:seconds:frames:bits this timecode forces each device to lock together every 1/80th of a second. Without timecode you are essentially running on what we would call 'clock'. Now if both devices were 'clocked' to the same word clock at the time of recording you would be reasonably okay but they weren't and so effectively you have the H4 which will clock to it's own word clock (meaning it will be pretty stable in terms of speed) but the camera won't be. This will effectively be running wild, yes it will be running at 25fps but the amount it will vary can be enough to throw sync. For example the difference between 24fps and 25fps is just 4.166% and this will be noticeably out of sync within 2 seconds. As you can see a speed variation of just 0.5% will cause the sound to go out of sync with the picture over time. All of this is a long way of saying that using an H4 with the camera should mean you will be able to maintain sync for x time but this is likely to be in single minutes rather than tens of minutes.

HTH

[Tony]

SL, I use the H2 regularly and I mentioned it's shortcomings above, however sync isn't a problem that I've come across whilst using it - I have had real problems with footage and audio from a professional company who film some of our events, and spent a lot of time remapping the audio to get it close.

Editing in prem pro, the frame rate is pretty irrelevant as the audio is not linked to the frame rate of the video, so if you record 24, 25 or 30fps on the video, and you record ten minutes of footage, when you drop your audio in from the zoom it covers ten minutes in the timeline - matching your video footage. Then you just sync it up and away you go - I've had hour long presentations without any sync issues across three cameras with zoom audio.

If however, you don't set your sequence up correctly and use 24fps footage in a sequence that you've set to 25, then you will lose sync as the audio will be running at the correct rate, but the video will be gaining 1 frame per second. Basic thing is edit in native fps, and if you need to change it, do it in the final render at which point it will adjust the audio and the video by the same amount.

[Tony]

and yes, I would rather have the H4N than the H2 so I can use some of the XLR mics we have around the place here - or maybe the Tascam DR-100 - have you used one of them?

[slaughteredlamb]

Editing in prem pro, the frame rate is pretty irrelevant as the audio is not linked to the frame rate of the video, so if you record 24, 25 or 30fps on the video, and you record ten minutes of footage, when you drop your audio in from the zoom it covers ten minutes in the timeline - matching your video footage. Then you just sync it up and away you go - I've had hour long presentations without any sync issues across three cameras with zoom audio.

I don't dispute that it has worked for you but I can assure you that whilst you are correct that frame rate is irrelevant (to a certain extent but let's not get into that as not all frame rates are standard) clock is very relevant. Put it like this. If you recorded some video on a camera, any camera, and then recorded audio on a cassette deck it wouldn't sync up. Why? Because 10 seconds of recorded audio doesn't necessarily equate to 10 seconds of replay due to the speed of the capstan motor. A clock source would effectively control the speed of the capstan motor so that it replayed at the same speed it was recorded at. Putting this into the professional field in the days before digital, the picture was recorded on 16mm or 35mm film and the sound was recorded on 1/4" tape using a Nagra 4.2. The Nagra 4.2 was 'crystal locked' to a 50Hz pulse (60Hz for USA) and this would sync to picture shot at 25fps. The crystal controlled the speed of the capstan motor and recorded a 50Hz tone onto one of the audio tracks meaning sound was only recorded in mono. When that 1/4" tape was replayed that 50Hz tone was used to control the playback speed of the capstan motor so that exactly 50 cycles per second was passing the head. This was later replaced by Timecode, more accuratley known as Center Track Timecode where timecode was recorded between the two audio tracks (allowing for stereo recording). This effectively gave every 'frame' of audio a unique number and an absolute defined speed for playback. Again this timecode was used to control the playback speed of the tape to ensure that exactly 80 bits per second passed the head. Taking this into the digital world you don't have to worry about motors but you now have to worry about Word Clock. Word clock is the pulse within a digital signal at a given sample rate and bit depth, it's advantage over the old clocking sources is that all digital equipment effectively has it's own in built sync clock which is very accurate, this means that generally speaking it can hold sync for long periods of time BUT it is not guaranteed and can be influenced by outside elements. Even turning a kettle on could, in theory, cause the speed to fluctuate slightly if either of the recording device was also plugged into the same mains supply. Because you effectively have two digital sources all clocked to their own accurate clocks they can, will, might run in sync for a period of time and that time could be anything but it is not guaranteed. Over a 2hr continuous record it could hold sync but equally it could drift, in all likelyhood it has drifted slightly in and out throughout the 2hr period but perhaps not by enough for you to notice. Most 'untrained' people will spot if the sound is out by 3 frames, some can by 2 frames but less than that and it becomes very hard to spot unless you know what to look for. After dealing with sync sound to picture for nearly 20 years I can spot it pretty instantly if it 1 frame out and usually can detect 1/2 a frame on certain material.

[Tony]

Thank god the vast majority of viewers I have are untrained then, mind you, most of the stuff that I do is a couple of sentences per shot, spliced together and with lots of graphics / b-roll / pc screen footage over it, so as long as it remains in sync for 20 seconds, I'm happy