Structure and Updating

[Barney McGrew]

Good afternoon. Long time no speak.

I am after a bit of advice on how a site generally gets structured these days as I fear the way I have done it in the past may now be outdated or there may be better ways. Currently I have all the main components of my site split up into various php files and placed in a folder called include. I then use the include function to add these various sections into the web pages. Obviously the good thing about this method is that if i need to add a menu item for example, I can just alter the one file. In saying that, with software today, it does not seem as hard to update a line of code on 10 pages within a section.

However, looking at a lot of sites these days, they do seem to me using different extensions, many still using html.

So my question is, what is the best method of creating a site taking into account the ability to update it easily. Is the php method still a current one or do people simply update lines of code.

[Mr Anderson]

Use a CMS?

[Barney McGrew]

I tried Joomla a while back but just couldnt get the hang of it at all.

[Mr Anderson]

I tried Joomla a while back but just couldnt get the hang of it at all.

There are plenty of far simpler to use CMSs out there, many at the least as scalable as Joomla.

Have a search for: WordPress, CMS Made Simple, PulseCMS, Text Pattern, Perch CMS, Dotclear, etc.

My recommendation would be for WordPress.

[sarahA]

Either a CMS to make life very simple, or just stick with what you're doing. Our company site is just PHP driven with the header and footer in an includes directory. The content is in each page and it just includes the header and footer. Simplest way going.

Plenty of sites still use static html pages, web development companies included. Often they'll either have used method to use includes or just used standard html throughout (and caused themselves a lot of work for updates!). Alternatively some fancy SEO will have told them that html gets indexed better in search engines that php/asp/etc files (rubbish) and so they'll have rewritten their URLs using htaccess to make about.php look like about.html

PS. nice to see you back, hope you're well?

[Matt]

WTBS

I use Wordpress these days even for simple sites, it can scale to what you need it to do easily, and allow you far more control when updating etc.

[Barney McGrew]

Not bad Sarah, been very busy and since buying an iMac have not had one single PC issue

I must admit the CMS bug hits me every now and again but when I last tried Joomla, I struggled to get to grips with making the folder structure as I wanted. I did actually manage it at one stage, then buggered it up but got really confused at category, sections and articles, more so the differences between category and sections in relation to my own content.

I have over 200 pages and a quarter of the content is written by another site owner, so i know that this is probably the best option. I just feel its out of my depth ?

[Matt]

Not bad Sarah, been very busy and since buying an iMac have not had one single PC issue

I must admit the CMS bug hits me every now and again but when I last tried Joomla, I struggled to get to grips with making the folder structure as I wanted. I did actually manage it at one stage, then buggered it up but got really confused at category, sections and articles, more so the differences between category and sections in relation to my own content.

I have over 200 pages and a quarter of the content is written by another site owner, so i know that this is probably the best option. I just feel its out of my depth ?

Two options then, either give it a try step by step and keep posting on here for help, or ask someone to do it for you, but for a site your size you will find an effective CMS will make it incredibly easy to update, and I dont think it would be *that* hard to convert to something like WordPress tbh

[Barney McGrew]

I think your right Matt. So, the ultimate question has to be which one ? Joomla or Wordpress. I presume any content created can be transferred into different themes. Having looked around there are literally 1000s of them. When I last played with Joomla, I bought the Firenzie Joomla theme, but its a May 2007 theme and looks dated now.

[sarahA]

Personally would say WordPress. It's smaller to begin with and then if the standard features (of which there are many) don't do what you need there is likely a plugin to add. Have worked with Joomla several times, even recently helping someone out with various fixes/updates, never got on with it. I find the code is so bloated, even with it's upgrade and improvements.

They can both give you the desired outcome. You'll just get there faster with WP.

[Tony]

Wordpress, it's a mile simpler

Oh, and WB!

[Barney McGrew]

I must admit I always thought Wordpress was purely for blogging ?

[Matt]

I think your right Matt. So, the ultimate question has to be which one ? Joomla or Wordpress. I presume any content created can be transferred into different themes. Having looked around there are literally 1000s of them. When I last played with Joomla, I bought the Firenzie Joomla theme, but its a May 2007 theme and looks dated now.

You could easily plug a CMS into your exisiting design, you wouldnt even notice what was happening if you were a casual user other then lots more content cause its a load easier to add!

When Im saying CMS, I mean wordpress. Ive been brought up on it by Sarah, and I can convert a HTML theme into a WP theme in a night (thats what Im doing right now!) and there are so many plugins available, and those that are not available talented people like Sarah can code for you (but Dave (Mr Anderson) has kinda but a block on her doing it for a while soon! )

I must admit I always thought Wordpress was purely for blogging ?

It's not if you know how to manipulate it - and later versions have made that easier and easier, Im currently coding up a wp site as an ecommerce site.

Take a look at:

www.mattian.co.uk
www.wolverley.worcs.sch.uk
www.thekiddiesdaynursery.co.uk

all three I have built using wordpress - they look totally different but all run the same system and look nothing like blogs. Loads more examples around

HTH!

[Barney McGrew]

Not sure what you mean by plug in to your existing design Matt.

I have just installed WP and hoped it would be a simple case of adding a category, such a Safety and then creating pages to sit within these categories. I think a trip to Amazon for the Big Dummies guide is in order

[Barney McGrew]

Your right, they look nothing like they are WP at all, very nice.

[Matt]

Not sure what you mean by plug in to your existing design Matt.

I have just installed WP and hoped it would be a simple case of adding a category, such a Safety and then creating pages to sit within these categories. I think a trip to Amazon for the Big Dummies guide is in order

Categories are for Posts (eg news posts)

Pages are for static content (usually) and have parent pages (see add page then on the right hand side)

So you have a page called Safety then create other pages and makesure their parent page is called Safety. They are then sub pages of the page safety.

By Plugin your exisiting design, you dont need a new design - your exisiting design could be easily ported to a wordpress theme by you or someone else.

Your right, they look nothing like they are WP at all, very nice.

Thanks, and Im no expert - I learn as I go! So it shows how easy and flexible it can be.

[Chris H]

If you need a hand with joomla.......

[Barney McGrew]

Cheers Chris, it was yourself who kindly helped a year or so ago, thanks. I presume you prefer Joomla to WP ?

Matt, that was a bog help in terms of creating a page and then another to sit under it, thank you. I don't think its explained as well as it could have been in the documentation. Looks like I can make lots of pages simply by pasting my existing content in.

It also appears that its very limited in terms of changing certain styles, I presume this is where themes come in to their own?

[Matt]

Yes easily sorted by css

[Chris H]

Cheers Chris, it was yourself who kindly helped a year or so ago, thanks. I presume you prefer Joomla to WP ?

Indeed, but that's because it's what I've used most. WP is not to be sniffed at but my personal preference is Joomla.

[Barney McGrew]

Ive spent the last 3 hours playing with WP and I must admit I am a little hooked now. I seem to have managed to get my pages set up in the format I want. I think I am on the right lines but I guess all my content is now being held in the database regardless. Am i right in thinking then, that in theory, any template, such as my own current site for example can simply be slit and used to replace the current themes CSS and HTML coding giving the look of the site, but sat behind it is the WP CMS. If so, this could be very good for me.

One thing that worries me is the urls. I currently have a top ranking in Google for Fire and Rescue etc, by using CMS, this appears to change the pages resulting in a lot of link ins not working. In saying that, there does seem to be work arounds.

Matt, I may have to become one of your future customers in terms of coding the site, if this is what you do. ?

[Barney McGrew]

Amazing how time flies. I better get to bed at 4:40am, its not good

[Matt]

Ive spent the last 3 hours playing with WP and I must admit I am a little hooked now. I seem to have managed to get my pages set up in the format I want. I think I am on the right lines but I guess all my content is now being held in the database regardless. Am i right in thinking then, that in theory, any template, such as my own current site for example can simply be slit and used to replace the current themes CSS and HTML coding giving the look of the site, but sat behind it is the WP CMS. If so, this could be very good for me.

One thing that worries me is the urls. I currently have a top ranking in Google for Fire and Rescue etc, by using CMS, this appears to change the pages resulting in a lot of link ins not working. In saying that, there does seem to be work arounds.

Matt, I may have to become one of your future customers in terms of coding the site, if this is what you do. ?

I do So do others on here in the interests of fairness

URLs - you can actually change how these are done so they use URL Rewrite I think but they look like domain.com/parentpagename/childpage and similar for posts as well, they are very SEO friendly.

and yes once the content is in you can theme it and everything and manipulate the data as well

[sarahA]

Looking at your main menu on your live site you have a directory style which could potentially be set up to 301 redirect with a few rewrite rules and regular expressioins through to the typical permalink style.

eg. all your top level pages point to a directory/index.php so you could just use htaccess to redirect to the the same url without index.php. then sub level pages are directory/filename.php which you could get it to drop .php and replace with a forward slash.

Not check the rest of the site but you get the gist

[Jacobi]

what draw backs you have using joomla , i am using it and found it the best in the business .
you should post on there forum if you found any bug .

[Barney McGrew]

I have used Joomla, but to be honest, struggles with the structure. However, in saying that, the heads up I gained above about creating a page and then child pages has changed my view of Word Press, I can actually use it and have created 2 web sites this week by using it. I think I need to adopt the same process with Joomla and then I will be able to use both and decide which I prefer. In saying that, I must admit I do quite like the way WP works and thinks it may be for me. The only downside is that I will have to pay someone to convert a theme over for me, as I will not have the time or knowledge to do it and paying someone will be the best option.

[Chris H]

I started doing a wiki on setting up and administering a Joomla site. Below is as far as I got regarding sections and categories. If you need help with Joomla then just ask!

================================

One thing that you should take time to understand is the concept of sections and categories and how they work together. To put it simply a Section is a container that should contain Categories. Categories are containers that should contain page content or articles. You can see how they all fit together below.

                                                                                           Section 1                                                        Section 2

                                                                                Category A    Category B                         Category C    Category D

                                                                     Page 1    Page 2         Page 3                               Page 4             Page 5    Page 6

Hopefully you have the idea! A Section groups together Categories that are related and Categories can contain pages that again are related.

So for an example: You have a website about fishing, you can have content regarding equipment, fish, locations, bait, licences, rods, reels, hooks, maggots, floats, ledgers, spinners, rivers, lakes etc etc. The key to a website that makes sense is to bring your content together in related groups. So we could have a Section that covers fish. Then we could break that down into Categories. In this case we could have Categories that cover Freshwater Fish and Sea Fish. Then you could have a page for Tench, Carp, Gudgeon etc under this Freshwater Category.

You should always plan your website in advance, it can make the difference between a site that is easy to navigate and makes sense to a site that's a jumble and hodge podge of information here and there!

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