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Author Topic: Decent starter kit  (Read 4317 times)
sponna
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« on: October 19, 2008, 11:39:07 AM »

Hi,

The missus and I want to upgrade from our "point and shoots" to summat decent - presumably a digital SLR? (shows ignorance). I used to do a fair bit with film and tradtional SLR kit but that's years ago. Point and shoot is great for hols and you can get some decent shots but we fancy learning a bit more. I don't mind lumping some decent kit around but can you get quality compact gear these days?

What can I get for say £750 - looking for camera, lens (fixed or zoom?), case and maybe tripod. Anything else we need, flash etc? We have a multitude of memory cards, photoshop, decent printer etc so its really the basic gear to get the shots taken. Oh an perhaps a good book!

cheers for recommendations.....

Dave
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slaughteredlamb
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2008, 12:18:27 PM »

Choosing the camera is easy as all of the current crop of DSLR's are great. The hard part, and the one that will decide your budget for the camera body, is the lenses. The kind of photographs you want to take will determine the type of lenses you'll need so can you give us an idea of what kind of photography you want to do in the order that you will do most? e.g.

1) Family Photos
2) Landscapes
3) Wildlife
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Mr Anderson
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2008, 01:27:36 PM »

The Canon 450D is a great camera that won't be too big to carry around, or use if your wife has small hands (though you can still get the 400D from a few places for a fair bit less and that's also a great camera. If you buy the 450D as a part of a kit then it works out that you get the kit lens for about half price. The kit lens will most often be a standard zoom (covering wide angle to the normal range (equivalent field of view (fov) to short telephoto on a crop camera)). Most people find they use the 17-55mm range more often than anything else and so something in that range is generally worthwhile (just be prepared to upgrade the kit lens when you get into it more as once you do and start pushing it you'll eventually outgrow it, but when you're on a budget a lens costing under £50 can do the job in the short term).

Canon EOS 450D + 18-55mm IS kit lens = £444.50

Considering the price of the 50mm f1.8 it's worth everyone who starts out getting one, as it's a cheap, fast and versatile fixed focal length (prime) lens. On a full frame camera the fov is considered normal as it's supposed to give the same approximate fov as human vision. On a crop camera it gives a longer equivalent fov though, at 80mm equivalent, but that's also a great length for portraits.

EF 50mm f/1.8 = £68.19 (available cheaper elsewhere if you trust the shops)

Tripods can be expensive, and they get more expensive the lighter, sturdier and more feature rich they become. But based on budget constraints and unless you start buying heavy kit such as a 300mm f/2.8 the Manfotto 190X should be capable enough:

Manfrotto 190XProB Tripod = £89.99

Whatever tripod you get you're also going to need a good head to go with it. Whether you prefer a ball head or a 3 way pan/tilt type is up to your personal preference, but I prefer ball heads. Sticking with the same provisos as mentioned for the tripod, I'd recommend the same head as Sarah has. It's small, light and flexible but will still support up to 6kg of weight. It's also inexpensive as far as ball heads go.

Manfrotto MN486RC2 Compact Ball Head = £39.99

As for bags - I have a few, and you'll probably eventually find that you have a selection that you use for different purposes. So decide how you want to carry your kit around now and then buy based on that. You have essentially 5 main options (excluding heavy duty stuff like Peli cases) - a backpack, day pack, a sling bag, shoulder bag, messenger style bag.

A back pack is great when you're out hiking doing nature photography, there's a large range of sizes but even the smallest will carry an SLR with several lenses and accessories. I can recommend both Loweprowe and Kata bags as being very high quality, but I wouldn't discount Tamrac either as they have a good rep.

The day pack type bags have a camera compartment as well as a 'personal' compartment for a pack lunch, jacket, change of shirt or whatever. Sarah has a lowepro orion trekker which is a very nice bag, but I can't seem to find at Warehouse Express any more. I have a Kata DR465 which is great. It's very sturdy, the main camera compartment will hold 3 lenses along with a 40D with grip attached and a few accessories. There's a drink bottle holder which can double as a monopod holder, the main compartment is big enough for a jumper, anorak and a pack lunch, and there are a 3 other accessory pockets - there's also a bigger version of this with a laptop compartment and more space in the other compartments.

Slingbags are useful when you want to carry your kit on your back but need quick access to it - such as while cycling. They're quite versatile, but if you put a lot of heavy kit in them they can become a strain, however I regularly carry my 40D + grip, 3 lenses, filters, cleaning kit and other accessories in my Lowepro 200AW slingshot without it being an issue for me.

Messenger bags (I'm specifically talking Crumpler here, but there may be other similar brands) seem to be as much about style as function to me, and some reviews suggest they aren't the best if you get caught in heavy rain. However I do want one for carrying a small kit (body and 2 lenses) around town. But from everything I've read about them they aren't what I'd suggest as a first or primary camera bag.

Shoulder bags are possibly perceived as the more traditional type of camera bag, and some brands do market themselves as that (Billingham, Domke etc), but others have shifted from the traditional look and gone for more modern, but functional, styles. I like the look and features of several Lowepro, Tamrac, Hama and Kata shoulder bags, and when I need a larger one I'll likely be shortlisting the Lowepro Magnum and Kata Reporter bags with Kata maybe being the slight favourite as I have 2 Kata bags already and I'm very impressed with the quality. Until then I'm very happy with my Kata DC445 which, while not big and bulky, easily coped with everything I needed to take to Ireland with me last weekend (large dslr + grip and a lens attached with hood reversed, a small film slr with 50mm lens attached and hood reversed, a third lens with hood reversed and a lot of accessories), it was comfortable to carry and didn't get in the way when going around shops which a back pack would have done.

Kata DC445 shoulder bag = £51.95 - currently out of stock at WH, but if you can find it elsewhere it's a great bag (you can get it free from Practical Photography mag if you subscribe now, quote HSAA when phoning)

Other recommendations will depend heavily on what you want to shoot and how you want to shoot it as SL said. An alternative to a standard zoom might be a wide angle prime if you prefer a fixed focal length instead of a zoom, such as a 20mm or 28mm; or instead of the 50mm something around 30mm will give the 'normal' fov on a crop camera. If you want to go telephoto there are some fantastic but expensive options, cheap options are harder to find once you get past 50mm, but until I can justify the cost of a 70-200mm I'm happy with my 75-300mm which is pretty cheap at under £200. A lot of people slate it as crap, but I've had great results from mine and have sold prints from it. It does have its shortcomings, but if you can learn to work around those it's worth considering.

Edited to add ball head info.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 02:09:17 PM by Mr Anderson » Logged

sarahA
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2008, 05:32:24 PM »

I'd snap up Oliver's 100 or 300 slingshot it his post of bags for sale. I have the 100 which I use virtually of the time. It's not a massive bag but I current have my 400D plus 4 lenses in it, along with filters and other bits.
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sponna
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2008, 08:00:15 PM »

Excellent - thanks for taking the time to write a comprehensive review; appreciated.

We would be looking for an "all-round" camera as I suspect we would mix and match portraits, landscapes etc. That Canon looks nice and gets good reviews.....

Thanks
Dave
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Mr Anderson
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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2008, 08:09:39 PM »

We would be looking for an "all-round" camera as I suspect we would mix and match portraits, landscapes etc.

Most SLRs fit the bill for that these days, as it's the lenses that decide the purpose.

For landscapes you'll mostly need wide angles (10-40mm), with longer focal lengths being used when you want to pick out details; for portraits you'll mostly need short telephoto, around 50-135mm, with 50-85mm being the most usual lengths, but slightly wider is good for environmental portraits, and longer focal lengths when you want subject compression and/or greater subject isolation (by reducing the depth of field, although fast aperture primes can do this too if you have access to one); for general walk around you'll possibly find that around 30-50mm is the sweet spot as it seems to be for most people.
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slaughteredlamb
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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2008, 08:31:25 PM »

I'd check out some of the kits you can get for the new Canon EOS 1000D. For example you could get:

Canon EOS 1000D with EF-S 18-55 and EF 55-200 Kit £489
(You get the latest 'budget' DSLR along with the Canon EF-S 18-55mm f3.5-5.6 Lens & Canon EF 55-200mm f4.5-5.6 USM II Lens)

Manfrotto MN055XPROB Tripod - £119
Manfrotto MN488RC0 Midi Ball Head - £60

Total: £668

Leaving £82

You could have my Slingshot 100AW for £20 so that leaves £62 which is more than enough for a couple of 4GB cards which is all you'll need.


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keri
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2008, 08:59:09 PM »

I'd check out some of the kits you can get for the new Canon EOS 1000D. For example you could get:

Canon EOS 1000D with EF-S 18-55 and EF 55-200 Kit £489
(You get the latest 'budget' DSLR along with the Canon EF-S 18-55mm f3.5-5.6 Lens & Canon EF 55-200mm f4.5-5.6 USM II Lens)

Manfrotto MN055XPROB Tripod - £119
Manfrotto MN488RC0 Midi Ball Head - £60

Total: £668

Leaving £82

You could have my Slingshot 100AW for £20 so that leaves £62 which is more than enough for a couple of 4GB cards which is all you'll need.




Understanding Exposure which is a book that everyone on here seems to recommend, and it is really good  smile

On the bag front, the Slingshot 100AW is a really nice and confortable bag, i bought my dad one a while back and have knicked it many times.
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Keri
sponna
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2008, 08:59:24 PM »

Hi,

Is the 1000D an upgrade on the 450D? The resolution (?) on the earlier model seems a little higher? Where did you see that 1000D deal please - on Amazon it looks a little dearer. Are the image stabilsed lenses important?

Well out of my depth here  smile

cheers again,
Dave
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Mr Anderson
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2008, 10:05:40 PM »

Hi, Is the 1000D an upgrade on the 450D?


No. The 450D is an upgrade to the 400D, with the 1000D being a new line aimed at more closely bridging the gap between using a compact or bridge camera and an slr. The 450D would still be considered an upgrade to the 1000D in terms of features and capability. When it was introduced the pricing was a little off as the street price for the 450D had settled, but the same should be true of the 1000D now and you should be able to get that cheaper*, or get more in a kit for the same money (as in more lenses and/or accessories). For example the 450D + 18-55 kit is only a little less cost than the 1000D + 18-55 + 55-200 kit that SL mentioned).
 * the 1000D is £312.95 at Amazon and the 450D is £399

Bookmark this site: http://camerapricebuster.co.uk/index.html

Quote
The resolution (?) on the earlier model seems a little higher?


Yes it is, but don't get too hung on that. With all other things being equal a lower pixel density (which allows for larger pixels) can result in better image quality. It's one of the reasons that full frame 35mm cameras generally have better IQ than crop cameras. Even at 21mp the 5D mark 2 has a lower pixel density than the 450D.

Quote
Are the image stabilsed lenses important?


IS helps you to hand hold at slower shutter speeds than you'd normally be able to use. It's very useful on longer focal length lenses where camera shake can be magnified by the focal length or weight of the lens, and on slower aperture lenses where shutter speed might be impaired by the narrow maximum aperture. As a general guide it's recommended to have a minimum shutter speed equivalent to 1/focal length x crop factor in order to help prevent shake. So for a 100mm lens on a 450D that is 1/100x1.6 = 1/160s.  If the amount of available light is too low for you to reach that 1/160s then IS can help - 3 stops of IS can mean that you might be able to hand hold a 100mm lens at as low as 1/20s (these are only approximations though and the results will be different for different people). What IS won't do for you is to stop subject blur, so if your subject is moving you will still need a fast shutter speed in order to freeze their action. If you can't get that shutter speed (either buy widening the aperture, increasing ISO or increasing the amount of light available) then you need to use the blur creatively to get a decent shot - for example the use of panning in sports, or like with one of my recent shots where I allowed the slow speed to record people as almost completely blurred so they appeared ghost-like.
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2008, 08:40:38 AM »

I bought the 450D last month, and am very happy with it. It was my first foray into dSLR territory.

I also got the 1.8 50mm prime lens, and the Slingshot 200. I don't have a tripod yet. Maybe christmas time!

I'd highly recommend the 450D - I love it. It's easy to use - so easy in fact, I had the mother in law using it yesterday smile The dear wife is getting to grips with it as well smile
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2008, 10:05:32 AM »

You can save a bit of money by going for the budget Sony dSLR. They seem to be getting some good reviews and they're very good for the price.

I'm a Canon man myself but I think the options for budget dSLR have improved no end over the last two years. You don't have to go Canon/Nikon to get a decent camera and you could save money in the short term too.
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slaughteredlamb
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2008, 08:52:36 PM »

Hi,

Is the 1000D an upgrade on the 450D? The resolution (?) on the earlier model seems a little higher? Where did you see that 1000D deal please - on Amazon it looks a little dearer. Are the image stabilsed lenses important?

Well out of my depth here  smile

cheers again,
Dave


Okay, here's the thing, when you buy a camera you have to accept that camera technology simply isn't going to sit still whilst you learn how to use the existing technology. Think of digital cameras as being just like computers and we all know that 12 months in computers can mean a huge difference in processor, RAM, hard drive, graphics cards etc.

The other thing you have to decide on is if you are happy to buy a camera today but then not buy another one until that one breaks or if you open to upgrading your new camera every 3-5 years as new technology brings improved performance and results.

If you fall into the former camp then buy the absolute best camera you can now, say something like the Canon EOS 40D, and that may mean blowing almost all your budget on the body only and then add a lens or two when you can afford it in the years to come. The reason for this is that cameras like the 40D offer superior performance to cameras like the 1000D or 450D but this extra performance is not something that you will need or even be able to utilize at first or possibly for the first couple of years.

If you fall into the latter camp then don't spend any more money on a body than you currently need. Whether you buy the 400D, 450D, 1000D or even an older 300D, 350D or 10D any of these cameras will serve you magnificently for a number of years. Don't try and buy a camera that you will 'grow into' because it is an utter false economy as by the time you need to 'grow into' a new camera you will be at the time when you will be wanting to upgrade to a newer model that costs a fraction of the price and has loads of new features that don't exist in todays cameras.

So should you buy (if you were going to buy a Canon and I'm not saying you should) the 450D or the 1000D? Well the 450D is the better of the two cameras but there really isn't that much in it that actually counts for much in the real world. Okay the 450D is slightly higher resolution but it's minimal and even an 8MP camera is going to be perfect. My 30D is 'only' 8MP and I have no desire to upgrade because something newer has more pixels, in fact I've never really looked at any of my photos and thought "if only I had a few more pixels".

If you intend to take photography semi serious then possibly the 450D is the better choice BUT only if you can afford to also buy some decent glass to go with it and that is the key to buying photographic equipment. Spend your money on buying good lenses as these will make a vastly bigger difference to your photos then whether you buy the 450D or 1000D. When someone buys a lens it's often going to be a lens that they keep for years and years and it is usually the case that people will upgrade their cameras several times over before they upgrade a lens which is also why lenses hold their value for years whilst cameras loose their value over night. The 1000D being that much cheaper than the 450D means that you have that much more money to spend on lenses.

Now, if you do want to take photography a little bit more seriously then I would actually suggest something different. I wouldn't bother with buying a tripod at this stage unless that is you intend to take a lot of macro or low light/long exposure stuff. Instead I would take that £150-£200 that you would have spent on a tripod and head and put that towards some quality glass.

The 1000D kit I mentioned was this one http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product/default.aspx?sku=1028310 and yes it's a very good price and if you want a general purpose camera and lens then this is a very good choice. But if you want to take photography more serious than it would be fair to say that you wouldn't be thinking of keeping either of those lenses long term.

So instead perhaps you could buy this:

Canon 1000D BODY ONLY £299
Sigma 24-70mm f2.8 EX DG Macro Lens £289
Canon EF 75-300mm f4-5.6 USM III Lens £185

Total: £773

Yes it's slightly over your budget and yes you don't have anything for a bag or memory cards but memory cards are dirt cheap and bags can be picked up cheapily too (did I mention I have a bag for sale that would fit all of the above into wink ) and the Sigma lens is very nice (I own it) as the  f/2.8 max aperture is a distinct advantage. The 75-300 isn't the best lens that Canon does but it is still a nice lens and highly usable and better than the 55-200 lens that comes in the 1000D kit. Yes it would be nice to get the Canon EF 70-300mm f4-5.6 IS USM Lens instead but that's £360 which would smash your budget. It should also be pointed out that there is a Canon 1000D that includes the Canon EF 75-300 but this is the non USM version which you don't want as USM really improves focusing speed which is what you need on lenses with this kind of focal range.
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Britman
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« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2008, 07:37:09 AM »

You may want to consider a flash, while the built in flash on all the cameras are okay, if you plan on taking a lot of shots indoors it might be worth spending a little on a decent flash gun. I have a Sigma EF500 DG ST that I might let you have at a good price.

But as has been mentioned, more money on lenses.
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sponna
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« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2008, 08:44:33 PM »

Thanks again folks - sorry for the late reply, been out of the country.

Lots of good advice and food for thought. I'll do my research and take the plunge....

cheers
Dave
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Jeewhizz
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2008, 06:28:02 AM »

Cheap bag here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lowepro-Rezo-Shoulder-Digital-Lenses/dp/B0007X2GIO
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keri
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« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2008, 11:55:30 AM »

Crumpler have some nice bags, and there are some end of line ones at this site which are reasonably priced -
http://www.we-sell-crumpler.co.uk/BagListing.asp?Name=Camera-Bags&BagCategory=50

I've just ordered this one for my D90, but i'm a crumpler fan as i've got one for my laptop.
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Keri
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« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2008, 12:05:43 PM »



Sarah's just got one of those and it's a very nice bag for when you only want to take one or two lenses out.

I've just ordered this one for my D90, but i'm a crumpler fan as i've got one for my laptop.


I want one of those too but I'm a little doubtful about how durable it'll be, especially in wet weather, and about some of the capacity claims. Let me know what you think once you've got it.
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keri
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« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2008, 05:34:13 PM »

I've just ordered this one for my D90, but i'm a crumpler fan as i've got one for my laptop.


I want one of those too but I'm a little doubtful about how durable it'll be, especially in wet weather, and about some of the capacity claims. Let me know what you think once you've got it.


Will do, i've currently got a fishy slip that i carry my macbook and my d90 around in, need something that offers more padding for the camera. If it was wet and windy i agree that there is a possibility of the inside getting wet. With my current bag there is pretty good protection with folds and flaps and my laptop is in a sleeve inside the bag so it is fine, but the camera could get wet, which is where the slingshot and it's pac-a-mac is great.
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Keri
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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2008, 11:02:03 PM »

I've just ordered this one for my D90, but i'm a crumpler fan as i've got one for my laptop.


I want one of those too but I'm a little doubtful about how durable it'll be, especially in wet weather, and about some of the capacity claims. Let me know what you think once you've got it.


I've got my bag, it isn't very big but it will hold SLR with lens plus another lens or a flash as it describes. Perfect for me as i currently only own one lens, and if i knick any of my dad i can always knick his slingshot at the same time. The fabric used on the bag is the same as my laptop bag and i don't doubt it to be good at keeping the rain out, although i'm not convinced that the top would hold bag heavy rain.
Some pics of the inside of the bag with my D90 + 18-105mm lens inside 1, 2, 3, 4  & the top flaps to help keep your camera dry.
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Keri
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2008, 11:12:48 PM »

Cheers Keri. It looks big enough for what I want smile
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